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fitzski View Drop Down
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  Quote fitzski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Weird Madras Issue
    Posted: 30-Dec-2012 at 02:25
So I put the winters on the W8... and had another adventure.

The winters are my refinished Madras with Hakka snow treads. I got them installed without issue, but on test drive, lots of noise (clunk, clunk) from the LF. WTH?!! I thought maybe the wheel was a bit cocked on the studs (i.e. not seated flat)???

Got it jacked up, wiggled things around and I could visible see the 2-piece rim moving... hrm.

Look around, and 2 of the barrel bolts (adjacent to the valve stem, no less) are quite obviously backed out. That ain't right!

Fortunately I have a M8 triple-square bit for these small bolts, so I try to tighten them, and they won't budge. I remove them, tap & chase the threads as best I can, but absolutely cannot get the bolts to go in all the way - not even close. I pull out one of the other bolts and the length checks out. I suspect when I had the rims refinished, these were 2 bolts they may have snapped, and when they drilled and tapped, they didn't go deep enough, so the bolts are bottoming out? And they've been through 3 winters since then without issue...

I had some spare RXII bolts (not quite the same, but close... I figured). I cut about 4mm off a pair of them, and installed them gudentite with a mild thread locker.

Then I check the other bolts... about ~6 of them needed between 1/2 and 1 full turn to tighten. Hrm. Never had to do that before. Checked the other wheels, and only 2 bolts on one other wheel needed any attention. Everything tested out fine; drove the car a bit without issue, but for the most part it has been parked for a few weeks (3rd vehicle status... wah!).

Well, my sister in law visiting from Arizona borrowed the car for ~10 days, and gave it back saying it had a "rattle"... OK... possibly the clutch, which can rattle in the cold from time to time, me thinks...

Well, took it for a test drive... and damn if it isn't the exact same f'ing noise from the left front!!

Get it into the garage - the two replaced bolts are COMPLETELY MISSING. They backed all the way out of the rim, and were GONE. One on either side of the valve stem. sh*t.

Had my last 2 spare bolts... put them in, tightened everything... went for a ~1km test drive... OK, sounds good... wait... what's that noise... hmm... getting louder... WTF? clunk - clunk - clunk... Back to the garage... one of the bolts is backed out half-way!!! AAARGH!!!!

I've never seen anything like it. Certainly wasn't doing it at the end of the last season, so no idea what has changed (well, other than that rim now being on the front instead of the back).

Has anyone experienced anything like this?

I'm concerned that the "almost the same" RXII rim bolts might actually be a different thread than the Madras rim bolts, and perhaps my tap messed things up (even though I was able to put a fair bit of torque on it.

Has anyone got a trashed Madras rim that they could part out the bolts from?!

And what LocTite should I use... strong, but not permanent? Anybody happen to know the proper torque value for the rim bolts?

grrr...

[Sorry for the length... just a wee bit ticked by this... Especially with a whole lotta snow that I'd love to go playing in...]
2003 Passat W8 Variant
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srdavis872 View Drop Down
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  Quote srdavis872 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Dec-2012 at 03:34
How were these refinished? Did a shop do everything? If so, I'd bring it up with them. I know someone personally that had some RXIIs refinished and the place said they would do it cheaper as once piece instead of taking them apart. The heating process messed with the bolts and one day pulling into the shop at work the wheel separated on him.

I rebuilt some Madras before, had 1 bolt break off and had to drill and trap it. Used RXII bolts also, didn't trim anything off though. But I had a problem with not clearing debris from the holes and the bolts bulging through the other side on a number of bolts. But I dont have the wheels anymore, a guy bought them and had them refinished again.

I dont remember what I torqued them to, I want to say like 30 ftlbs, I went around the wheel once to 15ft lbs, then a 2nd time to 30... but I'd look around to verify that. I think I found that, or whatever value I used, on wheel-whores.com
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  Quote RobG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Dec-2012 at 20:02
Funny you should say that, yes, I do. Not sure how much postage to the US would be though. Also not sure if i've got the right socket to take them out, but i can always ask the tame mechanic if he has.
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  Quote fitzski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jan-2013 at 17:05
I'm going to send a note to BBS and see what they say. I've had good service from them on other oddball inquiries, though based on what I've seen while surfing around looking for answers, expectations are low on this situation.

Sean, did you use any Loctite when you put them back together?

Also... I've never split a rim apart... 1) Can I do this without unmounting the tire (just let the air out)? 2) Are there any gotchas, once the rim bolts are removed - are they glued as well - or should the centre pretty much fall out once the bolts are out?

Ideally, I'd get the rim apart, give it a thorough cleaning, chase all threads, reassemble with Loctite to consistent torque, cross fingers.

RobG... since the only certainty I have of getting proper bolts are those from another Madras rim, I'd be happy to work a deal with you if you're willing to disassemble the rim.

PS - I came across this old post in PW from one of our members:
http://www.passatworld.com/forums/55-wheel-tire-forum/185702-w8-madras-wheels-wtf-toast.html
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  Quote srdavis872 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jan-2013 at 18:26
I think I did, it was a few years ago. If I didn't I should have and would now at least. You should be able to split them without dismounting the tire, probably dont even need to let the air out. There is nothing where the face meets the barrel that would seal in air. Once all the bolts are out, you might need to take a mallet to the back of the face (that sounds funny) to get it out, simply due to years of being on there and probably having some corrosion (unless they were recently taken apart, but even then it should be a tight fit).

I would just ensure when you chase the threads to make sure ALL debris is out of those holes or else the bolt will bottom out on the debris before it's truly tight and will not be torqued properly and can crack and push through into the barrel.
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  Quote srdavis872 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jan-2013 at 18:29
Here's the ones I refinished, but I guess I didn't note anything about the bolts when reassembling.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5114174-DIY-W8-BBS-Madras-lip-refinishing&highlight=madras

Edited by srdavis872 - 02-Jan-2013 at 18:29
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  Quote fitzski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2013 at 03:10
oooh... maybe I should replace with some bling bolts...
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  Quote DBKitt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jan-2013 at 00:05
I was told by BBS that they are NOT to be disassembled...
'03 Passat Wagon W8 6sp because it's one louder than a V8 isn't it?
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  Quote MRAJB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jan-2013 at 01:07
When I had my rims redone, the company said they took them apart to do the job. I can't verify if they did or not, but that's what they told me.
Looking to buy a W8 Wagon 6-Speed to haul grocceries...And I finally found one on 2-16-2008
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  Quote srdavis872 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jan-2013 at 02:59
Originally posted by DBKitt

I was told by BBS that they are NOT to be disassembled...


Pretty sure BBS will tell you not to take any of their wheels apart. They want you to send them to them to get refurbished. I dont think it's that it's because they are not meant to be disassembled, but because of the liability they could face if someone reassembles them wrong and an incident happens.
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